[WMCEE-l] What the meeting is good for?

Tue Nov 18 21:28:33 CET 2014

Hello,

I would also like to come, those (19-21 December) are the only dates in
December which I can fit in my agenda. This meeting would be my first
meeting with wikipedians outside of Bulgaria.
I have been contributing to Wikipedia since March 2006, mostly in
Bulgarian, but also, occasionally in German, English, and Swedish. I have
also been working on the organizing of a user group for wikimedians of
Bulgaria, together with the other participant, representing the Bulgarian
language Wikipedia, Vassia, as well as contributed to sister projects like
Wikivoyage.
My aim at this meeting is to learn more about the process of organizing a
new user group, as well as to exchange ideas about day-to-day activities
like patrolling and guaranteeing that Wikipedia articles contain high
quality information.

However, I have a slightly strange case – I will be flying in from Munich
and flying out to Sofia. I would like to pay for a part of my flights, but
I would need some help, because flying over Kiev to Sofia is not as cheap
as flying over Vienna, Rome or Bucharest during the week, which I would
normally do.

Best regards,
Nikola Kalchev / Лорд Бъмбъри / Lord Bumbury

On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 8:54 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek at gmail.com> wrote:

> OK. So, let's do it on December - but please decide about it ASAP !!!
>
> 2014-11-18 1:00 GMT+01:00 Strainu <strainu10 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Guys,
>>
>> This discussion does not seem to be going anywhere, so let me chime in
>> and try to structure it a little.
>>
>> On one part, there are the people who feel that we are too different for
>> practical cooperation, but who nonetheless call for some "natural" or
>> narrow-focus groups to be formed. It is unclear to me what "natural" means,
>> except perhaps language similarities, which is already the criteria used
>> when creating Wikipedias. Having a lot of people together (in my
>> experience, "a lot" means more than 6-8) leads to fragmentation of the
>> group based on common interests and personal decisions. In that regard, the
>> CEE meeting could not hurt this objective, provided that some target areas
>> are identified beforehand and are accompanied by a serious retrospective
>> after the event (which I personally have not seen so far for the previous
>> meetings).
>>
>> Starting with the points identified by Juandev seems like a good idea to
>> me. As to the retrospective, perhaps one person can take the lead on each
>> of the topics and make a firm commitment that she will deliver a short
>> report on the proceedings no later than 2-3 weeks after the event (or more
>> if it's just before Christmas)?
>>
>> On the other hand, there is the problem of financing. The people from
>> hu.wp have correctly pointed out that plane tickets are cheaper if you buy
>> them in advance. However, if the difference is indeed only 20-30% we would
>> have to consider if the extra cash is matched by the fact that it's easier
>> for people with jobs to plan 3 weeks in advance than 3 months in advance.
>> There was also the idea of having a CEE meeting in Zurich. However, my
>> understanding is that the Zurich meeting is dedicated to chapters, and not
>> all countries in this region have one. Also, plane tickets to Zurich might
>> be even more expensive than to Kiev - they certainly are from Bucharest.
>>
>> Finally, there is the problem of the date itself (regardless of the
>> financial implications). As I said before, having to commit 3-4 weeks in
>> advance is much easier for me at least, and I suspect that for many others
>> in our community, than committing 2-3 months in advance. Also, having a
>> meeting in full winter might lead to unpleasant surprises from the weather,
>> with flight cancellations and other issues. Of course, December is not
>> risk-free, but it's still better IMHO. People from uk.wp can confirm or
>> deny this. It is also easier for everyone if they enter the new year with
>> some clear ideas of the possible collaborations that they might have in
>> 2015. Last but not least, before we even consider a date further down the
>> road, we need to be sure there will still be a willingness from the
>> Ukrainian team (or someone else) to organize this meeting.
>>
>> Whatever you might think of these issues, I ask that we decide for sure
>> the date (and hopefully the agenda as well) by the end of this week.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>   Strainu
>>
>>
>>
>> 2014-11-17 22:14 GMT+02:00 Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k at ukr.net>:
>>
>>> Hi Balasz,
>>>
>>> Actually, it's not 2x-3x-4x difference, it's at most 20%.
>>>
>>> I checked Budapest-Kyiv on Skyscanner, and the air fares are the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> 1) December
>>> inbound 18 December (Thursday) - outbound 21 December
>>> * 102€ / 31 352 Ft (direct WizzAir)
>>> * 161€ / 48 983 Ft (via Vienna)
>>> inbound 19 December (Friday) - outbound 21 December
>>> * 111€ / 34 236 Ft (direct WizzAir)
>>> * 164€ / 50 183 Ft (via Vienna)
>>>
>>> 2) February
>>> inbound 19 February (Thursday) - outbound 22 February
>>> * 138€ / 42 056 Ft (via Munich or Vienna)
>>> inbound 20 February (Friday) - outbound 22 February
>>> * 85€ / 25 980 Ft (direct WizzAir)
>>> * 161€ / 49 115 Ft (via Vienna)
>>>
>>> While there are indeed some price differences, they are really small,
>>> max. 20%, a nd definitely not 2x or 4x. Kyiv is not particularly popular as
>>> a winter destination, thus there is no significant price difference, so
>>> there will be little to no additional cost for you and other chapters.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mykola
>>> WMUA
>>>
>>>  --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>>> Від кого: "Balázs Viczián" <balazs.viczian at wikimedia.hu>
>>> Дата: 17 листопада 2014, 16:57:10
>>>
>>>  Mykola,
>>>
>>> As I wrote before, we have sufficient funds to attend. We even have
>>> some to support the event itself if needed.
>>>
>>> As Samat said, we will not spend a single penny just because the
>>> financial year end approaches fast, only if we see it worth it.
>>>
>>> Did I miss it or there is still no decision on the actual dates?
>>>
>>> Anyhow, a ticket for a plane in December costs 2x-3x or maybe even 4x
>>> more than a ticket to a plane in February to put it simple. That is
>>> the difference.
>>>
>>>  Balazs
>>>
>>>   2014-11-16 23:46 GMT+00:00 Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k at ukr.net>:
>>>
>>> Concerning budgets, it depends from case to case - for example, for
>>> those having APG grants or planning to switch to APG unused funds may be
>>> badly viewed by the WMF. I did not have time to check what all chapters
>>> have put in their budgets and whether they can easily reallocate these
>>> funds to the next year, and you definitely know the WMHU budget better.
>>>
>>> However, I don't see how it can be done significantly better in February
>>> 2015 than in December 2014. There were many concerns about the programme -
>>> now almost all chapters have contributed to the programme, except exactly
>>> WMHU - thus I would be happy if you could fill in the form at
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2014/Questions%26Needs
>>> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wik%20i/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2014/Questions%26Needs>
>>> , and after WMHU is ready we will have feedback from all chapters. We are
>>> working on this from August, thus there should be no problem with
>>> conference programme - we are ready to publish our suggestion in a day or
>>> two (but we would be glad to get a feedback from WMHU first).
>>>
>>> What may be better in February is the availability of participants.
>>> There is no magic solution however, and I don't think we will find a date
>>> that arranges exactly everyone, as even for Wikimanias (planned a year in
>>> advance) we have people who are unable to participate. If there is a real
>>> problem that will prevent a lot of people from participate (religious or
>>> national holiday, important local events etc.) we may consider switching to
>>> a different date. However, if the issue is that some country would be badly
>>> presented in December, very likely another country will be badly presented
>>> in February, thus this is not the reason in itself for changing the date.
>>>
>>> If WMHU has significant problems with attending the CEE Meeting in
>>> December, please explain us your issues (you can write me privately if you
>>> don't want to publicly announce it here). If you have no problems wit h
>>> coming in December, we would be happy to see your suggestions and ideas,
>>> most notably via the page
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_CEE_Meeting_2014/Questions%26Needs
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mykola
>>> WMUA/ CEEM 2014 team
>>>
>>> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>>> Від кого: "Samat" <samat78 at gmail.com>
>>> Дата: 17 листопада 2014, 00:21:31
>>>
>>> I am not comfortable with the way of thinking, that if we have a budget
>>> we have to spend it even if is not worth to do.
>>> If there is allocated money for the CEE Meeting this year and we can use
>>> the same amount of money much more effective next year, I am quite sure
>>> that WMF would prefer to support the meeting next year, not this year.
>>> Don't forget: our money comes from individual donations and
>>> institutional funds, and donors expect that we use it the best way.
>>>
>>> Samat
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 11:53 PM, Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k at ukr.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Balázs,
>>>
>>>  What I mean under "allocated" is that you might have a sum of money in
>>> the 2014 budget booked for the CEE meetup. This really differs from chapter
>>> to chapter, as some chapters in the region are under PEG grants, some
>>> already have APG grants, while others have 1% of tax for charities in their
>>> countries. In all these cases budgeting rules and reallocation from one
>>> year to another are extremely different - thus I can't generalise without
>>> looking into budget of each organisation
>>>
>>>  In your case, I would like to know if you have a Jan-Dec financial
>>> year or a Jul-Jun financial year, because if your financial year ends in
>>> December, you will be unable to use your 2014 budget to support CEE meeting
>>> if it takes place in 2015. If you are ready to support the 2014 CEE
>>> meeting, please confirm what kind of support we can expect (or, for
>>> example, if you will be ready to cover travel costs from Hungary to Kyiv)
>>>
>>>  Best regards,
>>> Mykola
>>> WMUA
>>>
>>> 17 листопада 2014, 00:46:15, від Balázs Viczián <
>>> balazs.viczian at wikimedia.hu>:
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "allocated"?
>>>
>>> WMHU has no money allocated to support the event explicitly, but we do
>>> have a budget to support events in general.
>>>
>>> This means that we can offer our financial aid if we see you're in need
>>> of that and we see that the event worth funding. WMHU supported an earlier
>>> CEE meetup with 1000 EUR for example.
>>>
>>> We do not have money explicitly allocated to travel to the CEE
>>> meetup(s), however when we set up the budget for (general) travelling we
>>> did count with attending all the events, including the CEE meetup.
>>>
>>> Balázs
>>> 2014.11.16. 17:32, "Mykola Kozlenko" <mycola-k at ukr.net> ezt írta:
>>>
>>> Hi Vojtěch,
>>>
>>> I don't really like the word "donors" - that is not exactly correct.
>>> Basically we need to find which of the following is more important:
>>> * chapters that are already preparing for CEEM in December, or who have
>>> already money allocated for 2014
>>> * chapters who cannot attend CEEM in December or cannot be adequately
>>> represented in December but will be able to attend in February
>>>
>>> It's not up to us to decide this - it's up to participants to decide.
>>> However, so far most of chapters have confirmed that their representatives
>>> will be able to attend - which we considered as fine. On the other hand, so
>>> far only WMHU has raised concerns - thus we would like to know if
>>> Hungarians have any particular problems or if they would still be able to
>>> attend. If yes, we do hope that this meeting will work well for everyone.
>>>
>>> Just to remind, the link for preliminary registration is here :
>>> http://goo.gl/forms/ZozAWFrMXl
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Mykola
>>> WMUA
>>>
>>> 16 листопада 2014, 17:57:59, від Vojtěch Dostál <
>>> vojtech.dostal at wikimedia.cz>:
>>>
>>>  Hi Mykola
>>>
>>> I, or anyone else, certainly do not want to put you in a difficult
>>> situation. In the end, it is the organizer who is responsible for the
>>> conference, not the participants. If you think that organizing it in
>>> December is the best idea from your and your donors' perspective, then do
>>> it - of course we will try hard to send our members to attend it, if
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> best wishes
>>>
>>> Vojtěch Dostál
>>>
>>> místopředseda
>>> Wikimedia Česká republika
>>> Konopišťská 790/3, Praha 10
>>> http://www.wikimedia.cz
>>>
>>> 2014-11-16 14:42 GMT+00:00 Mykola Kozlenko <mycola-k at ukr.net>:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> One particular problem is that we wanted to organise a CEE meeting
>>> _2014_. As far as I can see, at least one chapter (WM Serbia) has allocated
>>> funds for CEEM in their 2014 grant (
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round1/Wikimedia_Serbia/Proposal_form#Supporting_Regional_Cooperation
>>> ), and I guess this may also be the case of other chapters with Jan-Dec
>>> financial year. It would be very dissappointing for these chapters not to
>>> use the funds they have already allocated, thus we would like to know:
>>>
>>> *Are there any chapters who have already allocated funds for CEE Meeting
>>> 2014 on their budget?*
>>>
>>> The more they are and the more important sums they have allocated, the
>>> less probable it is to move this meeting to 2015.
>>>
>>> For us (Wikimedia Ukraine) it is manageable to move it to February
>>> (probably not to January as Orthodox Christmas holidays may last until
>>> mid-January, and people are unlikely to work before 12 January or even
>>> later), although we will need to renegotiate quite a lot of things. At the
>>> same time, we should also bear in mind that we have Wikimedia Conference
>>> (April 2015?) and putting CEEM 2014 just before it will reduce its impact.
>>>
>>> We already have a draft programme and draft schedule, we are making
>>> final corrections and expect to publish them today or tomorrow.
>>>
>>> And while I understand that again we are making late start for CEEM
>>> 2014, this year we actually started in August by thinking on what we expect
>>> from this meeting, although I agree that it was once again a bit short
>>> notice. I do hope CEEM 2015 will be prepared better in advance, provided
>>> that we already have one bidding country at the moment (Estonia).
>>>
>>> Mykola
>>> Wikimedia Ukraine
>>>
>>> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>>> Від кого: "Vojtěch Dostál" <vojtech.dostal at wikimedia.cz>
>>> Дата: 16 листопада 2014, 14:41:01
>>>
>>>  Hi all
>>>
>>> I generally think that a CEE meeting, if carefully organized, can be a
>>> valuable conference where a lot of work can be done and new bonds
>>> established. International cooperation in eg. content creation or
>>> organizing competitions is very popular with our communities and as such
>>> should be encouraged. It is also a great opportunity to exchange ideas
>>> within a culturally relatively homogeneous region - for example, Czech
>>> projects are somewhat more likely to succeed in CEE countries than eg. in
>>> South America or Eastern Asia which are culturally very different in terms
>>> of academic relationships etc.
>>>
>>> At the same time, organizing a conference on such short notice is, to
>>> say the least, unfortunate. Apart from high travel costs, there is also not
>>> enough time to carefully plan the agenda. I know Ukrainians are very good
>>> in organizing conferences and *I trust them that the conference would
>>> be a great one* - but would it be worse in January or February next
>>> year?
>>>
>>> We could finally prove that CEE countries are able to organize
>>> conference well in advance. Actually, that would be a very big achievement
>>> for the conference organizers as it would also make the CEE countries
>>> better (more trustworthy) partners for international cooperation or funding
>>> within the Wikimedia movement.
>>>
>>>   Vojtěch Dostál
>>>
>>> vice-chairman
>>> Wikimedia Česká republika
>>>  Konopišťská 790/3, Praha 10
>>> http://www.wikimedia.cz
>>>
>>>
>>> 2014-11-16 13:11 GMT+00:00 Marcin Cieslak <marcin at cieslak.name>:
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 16, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <polimerek at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Yes.. and the pardox of the situation is that the only "lingua franca"
>>> > for the teritory is actually English :-)
>>>
>>> That's unfortunately true. For some older generation, it was Russian
>>> to some extent...
>>>
>>> > + some countries are at the
>>> > war at the moment or they have been quite recently.
>>>
>>> That's actually a very good reason to keep our cooperation working
>>> despite this.
>>>
>>>
>>> Having said that I'd love to come to the next CEE meeting, but I am
>>> not sure I can get off work
>>> (I do work weekends too) and it will be very difficult to get
>>> reasonable travel costs
>>> due to Christmas season starting with most airlines mid-December.
>>>
>>> //Marcin
>>>
>>> //Marcin
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>
> --
> Tomek "Polimerek" Ganicz
> http://pl.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Polimerek
> http://www.ganicz.pl/poli/
> http://www.cbmm.lodz.pl/work.php?id=29&title=tomasz-ganicz
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